In this episode of the Blanchard LeaderChat podcast, we interview Beverly Kaye, author of the new book Up Is Not the Only Way.

Kaye shares new ways to stay engaged and feel valued for managers and others who work in flat organizations—companies that offer few opportunities to climb the traditional corporate ladder. Kaye says a focus on creating engaging work and new opportunities for growth can help.

Part of the process for individual contributors is about changing their perspective on their current job. Kaye jokes that the grass is not always greener on the other side. “Sometimes when we get there, we find out it’s AstroTurf.”

Instead, Kaye suggests individual contributors ask themselves a few key questions—”What part of my job do I love?” “How could I do more of that?” “How can I talk to my manager about this?”—and then move on to what Kaye calls career calisthenics: “What part of my current job could I push away from?”  “What parts of my manager’s job could I pull toward me?”

Kaye also recommends people open themselves up to alternative career paths by seeking out options other than just waiting for a promotion.

For managers, Kaye recommends a one-on-one conversation with each direct report that focuses on the person’s career. Questions such as: “What was the best part of last week for you?” “What did you like best about the last project you worked on?” and “What one skill have you brought to this position that you haven’t fully used yet?” are all good places to start.

It’s not easy. But it can be done. And in this podcast, Beverly Kaye shares how.

Be sure to listen to the end of the episode to hear Ken Blanchard’s insight on the concepts Kaye discusses.